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 Post subject: HDD Data Lifeguard Diagnostic Extended test won't run
PostPosted: Sun Aug 18, 2013 3:40 pm 
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Hello,
I'm using Ultimate Boot 5.2.5 for the first time. I'm trying to run the HDD Data Lifeguard Diagnostic Extended Test For DOS 5.20 (Western Digital) on a TiVo Series 3 HD DVR hard drive, model number WD2500BS 250GB. Currently it's connected to a Dell Dimension 8400 which boots from the UltimateBootCD.

What happens is that the Quick Test portion of the Extended Test will run. After that, instead of running the Full Media Scan, I get a message saying that I have to restart the system. When I do this, it's back to square one. No media scan is done and I have to try to start the extended test all over again.

Here's the exact sequence of messages at the end of the Quick Test:

"Warning! One or more current or worst-case attributes are below threshold"

"Hit ANY Key to continue"

(Key typed)

"The System Must be Reset - Hit CTRL-ALT-DEL or Turn the Power Off"

The wording of the first message suggests that test results lower than the threshold values indicate failure. However, things like Raw Read Error Rate are above the threshold value. Is this a pass or a fail? Seems like a high Raw Read Error Rate would be a failure, rather than a pass because it's not "below threshold."

In fact the only test that results in a "below threshold" value is the Seek Error Test. The rest of the results are all much higher than the listed Thresholds.

Here are the detailed results of the Quick Test (breaks in ID sequence are as reported here):

ID Name Value Thresh Worst

1. Raw Read Error Rate 200 51 200
3. Spin Up Time 193 21 193
4. Start/Stop Count 180 0 180
5. Re-allocated sector count 176 148 176
7. Seek Error Rate 1 51 1
9, Power-On Hours Count 34 0 34
10. Spin Retry Count 100 51 253
11. Drive Calibration Retry Count 100 51 253
12. Drive Power Cycle Count 100 8 100
190. Airflow Temperature 56 45 50
194. HDA Temperature 107 0 180
196. Re-Allocated Sector Event 99 0 99
197. Current Pending Sector Count 200 0 200
198. Offline Uncorrectable Sector Count 200 0 200
199. UltraDMA CRC Error Rate 200 0 200
200. Mutli Zone Error Rate 200 51 200

So is the Extended Test not running because of these results? Anyone have any ideas?

Thanks,
Alan Mintaka


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 Post subject: Re: HDD Data Lifeguard Diagnostic Extended test won't run
PostPosted: Mon Aug 19, 2013 8:52 am 
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Joined: Sat May 08, 2010 5:26 am
Posts: 750
There is no such "WD2500BS" model. Without a correct model code, it is more difficult to say whether the tool you used (WD DataLifeguard Diagnostic for DOS) is adequate for your hardware. Evidently, if the tool is not meant for your model, the test result would be irrelevant.

You could search for the specific product page in WesternDigital's site and post here a link to it, or provide the exact correct model code of your disk.


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 Post subject: Re: HDD Data Lifeguard Diagnostic Extended test won't run
PostPosted: Mon Aug 19, 2013 9:08 am 
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Joined: Sun Aug 18, 2013 2:46 pm
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ady wrote:
There is no such "WD2500BS" model. Without a correct model code, it is more difficult to say whether the tool you used (WD DataLifeguard Diagnostic for DOS) is adequate for your hardware. Evidently, if the tool is not meant for your model, the test result would be irrelevant.

You could search for the specific product page in WesternDigital's site and post here a link to it, or provide the exact correct model code of your disk.


Yes there is. See the link below. Note this was the result of a search of legacy drives using the model number WD2500BS. You can see it in the expanded URL:

http://support.wdc.com/product/download ... bs&x=0&y=0

Here is the complete model information from the label on the drive:

Western Digital

WD2500BS

WD Caviar
MDL: WD2500BS - 55RPB1
Date: 03 May 2007
DCM: HBBHYTJAHN


FYI the WD Diagnostic Software recognized the drive and displayed the same model number, without the suffix "55RPB1" shown in the detailed model information on the label.

Evidently, the tool is meant for my model and the test result is relevant. But what does it mean, and why won't the full media scan portion of the test run?


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 Post subject: Re: HDD Data Lifeguard Diagnostic Extended test won't run
PostPosted: Mon Aug 19, 2013 12:34 pm 
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Joined: Sat May 08, 2010 5:26 am
Posts: 750
The link you posted is not for the specific drive.

I don't doubt that you are seeing the sticker on the HDD as "WD2500BS". Such code indeed matches one possible naming method of older WDC products. But since it is not listed in WDC and there is no "specifications" page for such product, the only way to have such HDD is as part of another product of WDC (or buying it second hand).

Anyway, my intention was to avoid a long series of questions. For example:

1_ Is the HDD SATA_I or SATA_II (there is conflicting info, depending on the source)?
2_ Are you using a (red) SATA_I or a SATA_II cable? Or perhaps you are still using the original bundled WDC cable?
3_ Is the controller SATA_I or SATA_II?
4_ Is this HDD connected internally and directly to the mainboard?
5_ Which HDD jumpers are you using, if any?
6_ Which BIOS settings are you using (AHCI? RAID?, legacy? …)?



If you are using this HDD with some other connection (USB-SATA, or eSATA for example), then perhaps DataLifeGuard Diagnostics for DOS might not provide correct results. The fact that the software (in this particular version of the tool) identifies the HDD doesn't mean it supports it for correct scanning. It may, or maybe not.

You could try using an older version of DLG Diagnostics, if the drive controller and the cable are the correct ones.

Generally speaking, if the drive is working (no "clicking" sounds, no bad connections,...) and if Windows can detect the drive, there are many freeware tools that list the S.M.A.R.T. values of each HDD in your system, in which case you could confirm the values you already received.

In general, when threshold values are met, it might indicate that the HDD is much closer to its EndOfLife. Just as a HDD with "nice" SMART values can crash without previous signs, having "ugly" values does not necessarily mean that the HDD is already "in bad shape with 100% of certainty". But, it would be wise to have backups of the important info in such drive.

In some cases, bad SMART values might be originated by bad cables or something else in the system, so eventually changing the HDD might not solve the source of the problem.


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 Post subject: Re: HDD Data Lifeguard Diagnostic Extended test won't run
PostPosted: Mon Aug 19, 2013 2:38 pm 
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Joined: Sun Aug 18, 2013 2:46 pm
Posts: 4
ady wrote:
The link you posted is not for the specific drive.


Then that's a problem with the WDC website, because it was the only search that returned a hit for that part number.

ady wrote:
I don't doubt that you are seeing the sticker on the HDD as "WD2500BS". Such code indeed matches one possible naming method of older WDC products. But since it is not listed in WDC and there is no "specifications" page for such product, the only way to have such HDD is as part of another product of WDC (or buying it second hand).


It wasn't part of another WDC product or purchased second-hand. As I pointed out in my first post, it's the hard drive from my TiVo Series 3 HD DVR.

ady wrote:
Anyway, my intention was to avoid a long series of questions. For example:
1_ Is the HDD SATA_I or SATA_II (there is conflicting info, depending on the source)?
2_ Are you using a (red) SATA_I or a SATA_II cable? Or perhaps you are still using the original bundled WDC cable?
3_ Is the controller SATA_I or SATA_II?
4_ Is this HDD connected internally and directly to the mainboard?
5_ Which HDD jumpers are you using, if any?
6_ Which BIOS settings are you using (AHCI? RAID?, legacy? …)?


Bear with me here, because I obviously don't know what I'm talking about when it comes to SATA HDDs. Here are my attempts to answer your questions, as numbered:

1. That's a tough call. I honestly don't know. (see answer 2)

2. For testing I'm using a red SATA cable in a Dell Dimension 8400. The original bundled cable in the TiVo is also red, same pinout, but is combined with the power cable. In the Dimension, I used separate red SATA data and power cables.

3. I don't know what the controller in the TiVo is. In the Dell Dimension 8400, I'm using a SATA/150 PCI expansion card to interface to the WD2500BS. I'm not using the SATA controllers on the motherboard. You've raised a good point here. I'll figure out which of the MB controller SATA drives is the system drive, and replace the other with the WD2500BS. Maybe the change in controllers will make a difference.

4. See above. It's connected to the SATA/150 PCI expansion card.

5. There aren't any jumpers installed on this drive. Unfortunately, the label doesn't have any info about jumper settings. I checked the circuit card too because sometimes jumper labels appear there, but there weren't any. What I can tell you is that the drive as configured acted as a slave in the Dimension 8400 and didn't interfere with the operation of the other drives.

6. Argh! This one will take time to answer. I'm rendering another Blu-Ray recording on the Dimension 8400 and don't want to interrupt it to run the BIOS setup. I'll post the answer to this one sometime tomorrow.

ady wrote:
If you are using this HDD with some other connection (USB-SATA, or eSATA for example), then perhaps DataLifeGuard Diagnostics for DOS might not provide correct results. The fact that the software (in this particular version of the tool) identifies the HDD doesn't mean it supports it for correct scanning. It may, or maybe not.


See my responses above for details on the interface I'm using. I thought I should use internal interfaces exclusively for testing purposes, since the interface in the TiVo was also internal.

ady wrote:
You could try using an older version of DLG Diagnostics, if the drive controller and the cable are the correct ones.


I have an EXE for the DLG diagnostics that may be an older version. I just haven't figured out how to get it onto a bootable DOS cd yet.

ady wrote:
Generally speaking, if the drive is working (no "clicking" sounds, no bad connections,...) and if Windows can detect the drive, there are many freeware tools that list the S.M.A.R.T. values of each HDD in your system, in which case you could confirm the values you already received.


I noticed during runs of the DLG quick test (whether it was run standalone or as the first part of the extended test) that a lot of clicking was going on in the drive. However I didn't know if this was a normal reaction to the tests, or an indication of a dead drive.

When I booted in Windows to see what would happen, the OS detected the drive in the Windows Disk Manager. However it told me that I would have to initialize the drive in order to use it. That meant formatting it which I did not want to do.

What the hey, if I can't figure out what's going on with the disk in the TiVo, I may be able to use it as a spare in Windows. I really do want to try to recover the recordings on the disk though.

ady wrote:
In general, when threshold values are met, it might indicate that the HDD is much closer to its EndOfLife. Just as a HDD with "nice" SMART values can crash without previous signs, having "ugly" values does not necessarily mean that the HDD is already "in bad shape with 100% of certainty". But, it would be wise to have backups of the important info in such drive.


Keeping backups of a TiVo drive is problematic. They don't make it easy to access the data on the drive, at least not in the context of the TiVo DVR. The closest TiVo comes to providing backups is to include a sort of "Recycle bin" of previously deleted recordings. Where those are actually stored is ambiguous. They might be on the internal drive, on the external eSATA expasion drive, or both. In that sense they're not much good as backups.

ady wrote:
In some cases, bad SMART values might be originated by bad cables or something else in the system, so eventually changing the HDD might not solve the source of the problem.


I'll have to do some additional work on the SMART values and what they mean. There are other tests on this boot CD which are not specific to drive brand and appear to report the SMART status. But again, I have to wait for that Blu-Ray to finish rendering.

Hey, thanks for your patience in answering my posts. Keep in mind that I'm essentially ignorant, just barely able to get a driving license these days.


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 Post subject: Re: HDD Data Lifeguard Diagnostic Extended test won't run
PostPosted: Mon Aug 19, 2013 4:19 pm 
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Joined: Sat May 08, 2010 5:26 am
Posts: 750
AlanMintaka wrote:
it's the hard drive from my TiVo Series 3 HD DVR.

You would probably need to search for the whole "package" under the "Home Entertainment" or similar WDC products.

AlanMintaka wrote:
2. For testing I'm using a red SATA cable in a Dell Dimension 8400. The original bundled cable in the TiVo is also red, same pinout, but is combined with the power cable. In the Dimension, I used separate red SATA data and power cables.

Well, there you have part of the conflicting info. Using a red SATA cable would suggest a SATA_I (SATA "150") HDD, but the naming code for that HDD WD2500BS would suggest a SATA_II (SATA "300").

AlanMintaka wrote:
3. I don't know what the controller in the TiVo is. In the Dell Dimension 8400, I'm using a SATA/150 PCI expansion card to interface to the WD2500BS. I'm not using the SATA controllers on the motherboard. You've raised a good point here. I'll figure out which of the MB controller SATA drives is the system drive, and replace the other with the WD2500BS. Maybe the change in controllers will make a difference.

If the mainboard's controller is SATA_II, and assuming that the HDD is SATA_I, then plugging the HDD to this controller might not be such a good idea.
AlanMintaka wrote:
4. See above. It's connected to the SATA/150 PCI expansion card.

5. There aren't any jumpers installed on this drive. Unfortunately, the label doesn't have any info about jumper settings. I checked the circuit card too because sometimes jumper labels appear there, but there weren't any. What I can tell you is that the drive as configured acted as a slave in the Dimension 8400 and didn't interfere with the operation of the other drives.


This is confusing, and might suggest some inadequate setting. SATA drives are not "master" nor "slave". If there are any relevant jumpers in the HDD, they are located on the same side of the cable connections. For SATA drives, the possible jumpers could define the size of the drive (for compatibility with certain BIOS limitations) and/or could define the SATA compatibility (for example, setting a SATA_II HDD to work as SATA_I, connected to a SATA_I controller).

AlanMintaka wrote:
6. Argh! This one will take time to answer. I'm rendering another Blu-Ray recording on the Dimension 8400 and don't want to interrupt it to run the BIOS setup. I'll post the answer to this one sometime tomorrow.

Here the main BIOS might have some influence, but also the SATA/150 PCI expansion card has its own BIOS too.

AlanMintaka wrote:
I noticed during runs of the DLG quick test (whether it was run standalone or as the first part of the extended test) that a lot of clicking was going on in the drive. However I didn't know if this was a normal reaction to the tests, or an indication of a dead drive.


The same kind of sounds you hear from a HDD when normally using the system (for example, when defragmenting under Windows) is normal for tests too. But louder intermittent sounds, "claps" or "clicking" high pitch sounds are certainly a sign of EOL and you should stop using (including "testing") the drive and shut down the system and disconnect the drive immediately (I mean, shutting down the OS normally; nothing unusual). The more you use the drive, the less chances anyone will have to try and recover any relevant information / files.

AlanMintaka wrote:
When I booted in Windows to see what would happen, the OS detected the drive in the Windows Disk Manager. However it told me that I would have to initialize the drive in order to use it. That meant formatting it which I did not want to do.


Under those conditions (under Windows, not testing the drive), were you also hearing those same sounds? Do you hear a similar sound when using other drives?

AlanMintaka wrote:
What the hey, if I can't figure out what's going on with the disk in the TiVo, I may be able to use it as a spare in Windows. I really do want to try to recover the recordings on the disk though.


Then perhaps you should consider contacting an experienced technician?


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 Post subject: Re: HDD Data Lifeguard Diagnostic Extended test won't run
PostPosted: Tue Aug 20, 2013 12:55 pm 
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Joined: Sun Aug 18, 2013 2:46 pm
Posts: 4
ady wrote:
Then perhaps you should consider contacting an experienced technician?


Oh, I'm sure that informed forum support will be adequate to address this problem, and be a lot cheaper too!

Besides, I ran across some good news while waiting for the Blu-Ray to render on the test PC. I went to the WDC website to try to resolve the missing part number issue and finally found a listing for the part on their email support page at (you have to register a free account in order to access the form):

https://westerndigital.secure.force.com ... 00dz3O1IAI

Once you select the option for out-of-warranty support, a product finder appears at the top of the form. The search engine provides a number of variants for this model number, the top two of which are:

WD2500BS WD Caviar Blue SATA Hard Drive 250 GB
WD2500BS-55RPB1 WD Caviar Blue SATA Hard Drive 250 GB

I was able to use these two numbers to ask WDC why there was no product page specifically for this drive, or if the product page I originally found at

http://support.wdc.com/product/download ... bs&x=0&y=0

had the correct support and downloads for this drive. I also asked them about the difference between the SATA and SATA II designations that you pointed out vis a vis the cable color.

At least I'll be able to find out if I'm using the correct version of the diagnostic.

In addition, it addresses your concern that there was "no such 'WD2500BS' model" on the WDC website. Neither one of us was looking in the right place, is all....

As soon as I get a response from WDC and/or the test PC is freed up and I can access the setup to check the RAID/ACHI setting, I'll post an update.

Thanks again for your time and patience,
Alan Mintaka


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 Post subject: Re: HDD Data Lifeguard Diagnostic Extended test won't run
PostPosted: Fri Aug 23, 2013 4:45 pm 
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I have a WD2500BS here that I pulled from my TiVo 3 when I upgraded the TiVo to 1.5 GB.
It's SATA II, but it has a jumper to run it at SATA I speed. Although all SATA drives are backward compatible - you can run a SATA III drive on a SATA I controller (at the slower speed) if you want. The cable is irrelevant - they're all much the same.

I can't test it right now - I put it in an external USB cradle, which limits what information is available. And putting it into my computer and rebooting is not an option right now, sorry.

And TiVo runs a unix operating system, so the drive is formatted with one of the unix file systems.


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 Post subject: Re: HDD Data Lifeguard Diagnostic Extended test won't run
PostPosted: Fri Aug 23, 2013 6:16 pm 
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Joined: Fri Aug 23, 2013 4:30 pm
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You didn't say whether the drive was still working at all, but based on the description of SMART values here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S.M.A.R.T.
compared with the values you posted, I'd be surprised if it's still functioning. There are a lot of values there that are way out of spec.


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