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 Post subject: "Pirated" copy of UBCD
PostPosted: Sun Mar 13, 2005 7:30 pm 
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Joined: Mon Feb 21, 2005 10:59 pm
Posts: 1259
I know this is slightly off-topic, but I don't want to create a whole
new forum for it, so please bear with me. Anyway, you can see it as
another user needing "support" from the group, so it is not entirely
inappropriate.

You guys know I have always been quite liberal with the distribution of
UBCD. It has always been free for the download, and many people have
been distributing the physical copy (UBCD list, SwiftCD, EBay, magazines
etc.) with or without my knowledge.

In addition, for the benefit of users, I have included a link to the
website in the various UBCD menus since V2.4 so that users who acquire
the CD via some other means could always choose to upgrade to the latest
versions later if they desired by visiting the website.

Recently, Mike Daniell notified me of this particular case that really
ticked me off:

- http://www.bootdvd.com/ultbootcdnz.htm
- http://www.trademe.co.nz/structure/auct ... d=23689522

If you look at the screenshots, he actually removed the link to the UBCD
website!! This is not someone who's just casually selling the UBCD
without my knowledge (which is OK for me). He has deliberately remove
any trace back to the website so that users who purchased the CD will be
none the wiser, and will have to go back to him and pay him for updates!

Granted, looking at the site description, he has probably done some work
himself (likely adding some parts of Windows UBCD). I can't comment
since I certainly won't pay for the CD to try it out. But to
intentionally remove all traces back to the original website borders on
the criminal. Just thinking of it makes my blood boil!

I like to keep negative energy to a minimum (I'd rather spend time doing
productive things) So I ask for your opinion: What is the least I could
do to stop this guy from defrauding people? I have the feeling sending
him an email directly will probably not yield much result. :-)


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 Post subject: I agree
PostPosted: Sun Mar 13, 2005 7:41 pm 
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Joined: Sun Mar 13, 2005 7:31 pm
Posts: 36
First let me thank you for creating this project almost 2 years ago. I am very glad that I found out about this great tool very close to it's beginning.

Thanks to you and your users my project was created almost a year ago! I don't know how many people have been around this project long enough to remember the yahoo group and the talk of a "Windows" version of the project.

Anyways, you referenced my project with the piracy problem. I agree it sucks that people must do these types of things. I can't understand why people insist on taking credit for other people's hard work. I wish there was an easy solution for us. We spend our "spare" or "free" time trying to help people, yet others try to take the credit. Although, the thing that bothers me the most is when these people try to "rip off" others. I have found many instances of people selling my project for $15!! $15?? Why? It's a freeware project, you can download it for free! If you are unfortunate and are stuck on dialup, you can purchase a CD from me with all files needed for only $6, not $15! These con-artists are what bother me the most.

Emailing the person will have a temporary effect. I've tried it several times. Threatening with an attorney helps sometimes also. However, they will just figure out some other way to get around it or "hide" their activities for a while. Then they will do it again.

Thanks again Victor and congrats on starting a forum!!


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 Post subject: Pirated copies of UBCD
PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2005 2:00 am 
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Joined: Fri Mar 11, 2005 2:31 am
Posts: 2
Location: St. Louis
I hope when you talk about people stealing credit and making profit off of others hard work. That you don't point at me as one of those people.

I have listed the newest versions of UBCD on eBay and have a similar site set up like ultimatebootcd.com
Where I offer to send a physical copy of the CD for $7.99 US per CD.
The most I have ever been paid for a physical copy was $9.99 US.
Most of the fee goes toward the actual cost of the CD, the label, printer ink, and postage. There is usually a dollar or 2 left over. But I wouldn't consider this profit. I have made small but generous donation to the main site and also pay to host some of the files for download. So any extra money made for selling the disc go toward sponsoring it.

I asked for your permission long ago, and hope that it still stands with you.

I hope that you don't think of me as one of the people who are exploiting the UBCD and stealing credit.

If you would prefer that I no longer offered to sell the physical copies please tell me. I will stop. But I never try to take the credit for all your hard work put into it. The screenshots and software is not altered or modified in anyway. The URL is still in the menu, and there is also a link to the homepage on my site.

Are you still okay with me doing this? Or would you rather I not provide that service anymore?


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 Post subject: Thanks
PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2005 2:49 am 
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Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2005 2:40 am
Posts: 2
Location: New Zealand
I also would like to echo the others thanks for your time and effort to bring this project to those of us that don't have those abilities. Absolutely magic.
As for the "rip-off" on Trade-me, they are usually very responsive to complaints. Usually, they will have all their listings removed and an e-mail sent to stop. Also, it is not unheard of, for them to disable that person completely.

Find the listing in www.trademe.co.nz, and at the bottom there is a link you can use to complain about the listing. If you require any assistance from this end of the world, please don't hesitate to contact me.

Regards
Tony


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 Post subject: No offense to anyone here
PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2005 8:29 am 
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Joined: Sun Mar 13, 2005 7:31 pm
Posts: 36
NO, I was not talking about you. I do not want to offend anyone here at all. Your activities sound legit, just like the others that send out the CD directly from Victor's site.

I was just referencing some personal experiences with my project being sold. People have stripped references of my project name from it and tried selling it as their own creation. Then there are the people who charge $15 to send it out....that is ridiculous!! They also fail to mention that it's a freeware project and people could just download it for free. I only charge $6 to send out my project on CD and I think that is very reasonable, it honestly covers my costs.


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 Post subject: "Pirated" copy of UBCD
PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2005 6:42 pm 
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Joined: Mon Feb 21, 2005 10:59 pm
Posts: 1259
I definitely wasn't complaining about people like you. You are not only
providing a service to the folks out there, but also have the courtesy
to inform me. Thanks!

That particular individual I was complaining about took the UBCD,
stripped the website URL off all the menus, and started to sell it,
claiming that "I am the manufacturer and copyright holder of this
ULTIMATE BOOT CD !"

If any normal person does not find this offending, I will be very
surprised. :-)

For the record, I am OK with people selling the UBCD, with or without my
knowledge, as long as he does not deny the chance for his customers to
know that UBCD is a freeware project and the latest versions can be
downloaded for free off the project website.

As long as this requirement is met, I couldn't care less what price he
sells the UBCD, or where he sells them (eg. EBay). Why? Because as long
as his customers has a chance to visit the website, he will easily find
other people distributing the UBCD for a fairer price if the original
price was too high.

I did send an email to the administrative contact for the website, and
he replied saying that he has combined other utilities with the UBCD, so
he is entitled to sell it. I sent him another email saying I don't
really care that you are selling the UBCD, but could you please put the
UBCD URL back onto all the menus? I have not heard from him ever since.

Tony, thanks for the tip! I will send www.trademe.co.nz a complaint
email and see if I can get them to drop the listing. Wish me luck!

We (the developers) are also thinking about including a license file in
the next release of UBCD to outline what is considered fair use of the UBCD.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2005 10:14 pm 
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Joined: Mon Feb 21, 2005 10:59 pm
Posts: 1259
I followed Tony's advice and tried to use the "Report this listing" function to make a complain to the site admin. But I was told I will need to login to use this feature.

Grumbling, I registered as a new user. After confirmation, I clicked on the "Report this listing" function again. This time, I was told I need to become an authenticated user by confirming my contact details _and_ crediting my Trade Me account!

I am not willing to put money into an account that I am probably never going to use just to make a complaint. Does anyone already have an authenticated Trade Me account who can make the complaint on my behalf?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2005 2:24 am 
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Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2005 2:40 am
Posts: 2
Location: New Zealand
OK, I have complained myself, on your behalf to trademe, as I am an authenticated member.
I have referenced this thread, so they can see for themselves that I am not making it up.
Just ask, I am happy to use my time, as I have used the results of your time and effort with UBCD.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2005 6:43 pm 
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Joined: Mon Feb 21, 2005 10:59 pm
Posts: 1259
Here's another one, sent to me by Joseph Graham:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 47996&rd=1

Same thing. Replaced the logo with a graphical one, and removed the URL altogether.

I couldn't find any link on the listing for complaining to EBay. Must I have an authenticated account again, or do I write straight to customer support?


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 Post subject: Licence of CDShell
PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2005 8:36 am 
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Joined: Wed Mar 23, 2005 8:13 am
Posts: 8
Hello,
I am young French, I ask you in advance to excuse yourselves for my English.

I want just to point out http://cdshell.org/download/license.html

It is the licence of use of CDShell...

Out the sale of software based on CDShell is not so simple only that...


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 Post subject: Oh the irony!!
PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2005 11:56 pm 
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Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2005 11:43 pm
Posts: 5
Trademe are completely, utterly clueless about copyright and licencing in general.

I maintain a collection of Free and Open Source Software for windows http://kiaoracd.org.nz. For months they have been removing my own, and later my wife's auctions because "selling freely downloadable software is piracy". Full story at http://zcat.wired.net.nz/blog.php

I've filed a "CW" complaint under my wife's login (with her full approval and encouragement). I'll also post the URL of this discussion into the NZOSS mailing list since it seems fairly closely related to my own complaints about TM.


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 Post subject: However....
PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 12:24 am 
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Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2005 11:43 pm
Posts: 5
Having said that, I have also wondered;

How much of UBCD is genuinely Open Source under an OSI-approved licence? I know INSERT is, and some of the tools, but not many!!

How many of the 'free to download' diagnostic utilities are also freely redistributable? Perhaps this has already been covered on the message boards.. I'll dig around.

UBCD is an absolutely brilliant tool (I mirror the ISO on my own server and tend to keep a CD in my briefcase) but I do wonder if it really qualifies as "GPL licenced" or a sourceforge project when so much of it is a compilation of closed-source utilities?

I'm also fairly sure that UBCD4Win is outright illegal. BartPE is one very large chunk of unauthorised Microsoft code!!


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 Post subject: Re: Oh the irony!!
PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 5:24 pm 
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Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2005 11:43 pm
Posts: 5
zcat wrote:
Trademe are completely, utterly clueless about copyright and licencing in general.

I've filed a "CW" complaint under my wife's login (with her full approval and encouragement). I'll also post the URL of this discussion into the NZOSS mailing list since it seems fairly closely related to my own complaints about TM.


They did not remove the listing for the ultimate boot CD, which is pretty much as I expected. It appears that you could post a copy of "Windows XP" on trademe with a statement that you're the copyright holder, and TM would let the auction stand.

Just for fun, I also reported a number of other auctions.

The most amazing result so far; I pointed out that the Perl book from O'Reilly (auction was for the printed book that you can buy through bookstores) was available for free download from oreilly.com/openbooks/. They removed the auction.


You might also be able to get help from http://scambusters.co.nz/forum/


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 7:29 pm 
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Joined: Mon Feb 21, 2005 10:59 pm
Posts: 1259
Quote:
How much of UBCD is genuinely Open Source under an OSI-approved licence? I know INSERT is, and some of the tools, but not many!!

How many of the 'free to download' diagnostic utilities are also freely redistributable? Perhaps this has already been covered on the message boards.. I'll dig around.


My gut feel is about 50-50. When we first moved this project to SF, we did discuss whether to produce a "sanitized" version of UBCD, but we decided it probably won't be too useful.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Nov 23, 2005 8:22 pm 
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Joined: Wed Nov 23, 2005 8:19 pm
Posts: 3
Quote:
I am the manufacturer and copyright holder of this ULTIMATE BOOT CD !

copyright © 2005 mana media All rights reserved.


Well, if UBCD is open source you could sue him for copyright infringement. You could threaten trademe with a lawsuit (if a lawyer in here could write them a letter in your name it would be sufficient). And someone could hack his own site and cause as much damage as possible.

Those are the only options.


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 Post subject: Stealing Code & Hardwork
PostPosted: Sun Nov 27, 2005 8:52 am 
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Joined: Sun Nov 27, 2005 8:40 am
Posts: 3
I think a license is required outlining exactly how the UBCD can be sold and redistributed. Then when any failure to comply is detected its hould be pursued to the full extent in every case.

I have found another user passing off your work as his companies own work and have imformed them of this wrong doing o await a response but dont hold out much hope as the people doing this sort of thing have little or no morals that stealing other people code and work is plain wrong and you just DO NOT do it.

http://cgi.ebay.ca/WINDOWS-BOOT-CD-DISK ... dZViewItem

as you can see they have removed the links and also gone to the added insult of adding the own logo over screen grabs to claim ownership.

Come on guys this is a great app we all use it and it deserves our support when people steal other peoples code & hardwork that work needs to be defended. If somone stole my hard work or code and passed off as there own i would really appreciate some help suing or nailing the culprits.

Darren


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Nov 27, 2005 9:01 am 
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Joined: Sun Mar 13, 2005 7:31 pm
Posts: 36
That's a pretty nice CD!! I'm guessing it's dual boot also, since I see screenshots of my project on their auction! This is sad. They have a pretty high feedback number also, wonder how long they've been doing this? I've contacted several people in the past and forced them to stop, they were smart enough to be scared by legal threats. I just don't know how it works for other countries though, so I've just always "dealt" with it in those cases. It's still sad! They are lazy too, one of the feedback comments was "ok I guess, came with no instructions."


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Nov 27, 2005 1:24 pm 
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Joined: Sun Nov 27, 2005 8:40 am
Posts: 3
This is a serious problem. Not only for this project but for many others also.

I do not think this would be a simple task but i am guessing alot of the work must have already been done regarding permissions and licenses of all the software included on the CD.
Once it is established what software all the various apps are released under it would make the task of finding a suitable license much easier. But it may also force dropping some apps if the licences are incompatible and finding suitable replacements if they exist or losing them all together if not in order to protect and have an enforceable way of punishing PIRATES.

Depending on what licenses the various software is released under would the FSF maybe be of some assistance ?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Nov 27, 2005 1:36 pm 
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Posts: 36
My project is only released in a self extracting EXE, which contains a basic EULA. So they are breaking the rules with that. I'm pretty sure that all tools in my project are allowed to be there. I contacted most authors over the course of my project. There are several tools that I have had to ask for permission directly to include, and know that at least one has a "generic" license number that the author gave me ONLY for the project!! It's a freeware tool that requires you to register your name and email address on their site and then they send you a license via email. They were nice enough to allow ONLY us to use that so the project wouldn't have to add that complication in the build.

Just really sucks when the authors of these projects sit around broke because few people donate.....then "con artists" sit out there and make money from our work!!


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Nov 27, 2005 11:29 pm 
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Amazingly i have recieved a response from the offending ebay seller.

However it would appear the seller has little or no understanding of the GPL itself and of other trademark usage and EULA.

Here is the response i recieved.

Dear.
If my item bothers you, I am so sorry for that.
UBCD is under GNU policy, so there is no restriction to distribute to others and they offer download and sell actual CD on there mirror site.


And if what I use the picture which I redesignned is really Microsoft Windows's trademark, I am very soory and I will check and omit it.
However, my item's purpose is not the usage of the trademark for selling Windows OS, but my item includes boot helper and service pack for Microsoft Windows, So, the purpose the picture is for them.

And my item includes UBCD and many open source programs on one CD, therefore, it is a little hard that the item is UBCD itself. So, I just named it Emergency Boot CD it is not the specific trademark or item's name, but just general name for the item such as Emergency EXIT on buildings.

I have will to correct my fault or wrong.
Please let me know if I am wrong.
Of course, I will check them up again if there are any problems.

Thank you.
Sincerely,
Giftinusa


Even if the seller was correct in the assumptions he has still clearly breaking the conditionsof the GPL and also SteelTrepid says his Code is not used the GPL but under his own EULA.

Just for clarification here is the Email i sent to the seller myself which got the response.

I notice you are passing off The Ulitmate Boot CD as you own companies work. Even to the extent of putting your own logo over screen grabs of other peoples software. I will be imforning the authors and contributors of your work and notifying ebal also. I assume also that you have permission to use Microsofts Registered trademarks in the passing off other peoples hardwork as your own.

While there is no restrictions in packageing and selling UBCD as is. How you are doing it by passing ot off as your own work is.


I hope you do not mind me getting involved in this but i these people are scum and clearly do not know what they are on about.

If you would rather i did not interefere and left you to deal with these people yourselves then please le tme know and i will respect your wishes.


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