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 Post subject: Re: Suggestions for replacement of Parted Magic
PostPosted: Thu Nov 21, 2013 9:09 pm 
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Quote:
Legally it is not a issue for UBCD to include newer pmagic, the issue now is the cost incur to directly obtain it, if UBCD maintainer were to choose.
I think the legality part is clear, given the GPL status of Linux and the apps included in PM. However, my opinion is that taking that move will go very much against the spirit of PM's author's intentions, which I am unwilling to do. It will simply force his hands and discourage him against further work on PM.


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 Post subject: Re: Suggestions for replacement of Parted Magic
PostPosted: Sun Dec 15, 2013 3:37 am 
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Explorer09 wrote:
Hey everyone. Look at the text at the new Parted Magic download page
https://partedmagic.com/downloads
[...]
Perhaps we could add this warning on the UBCD homepage, until we have a replacement for Parted Magic.

Hi everybody!
I just discovered here that this last free version of PM does have a bug with USB drives. I don't understand how critical this issue is, but as I have used the bundled Parted Magic in UBCD several times with USB HDDs I would prefer to go back to Parted Magic 2013_06_15 from UBCD v5.2.5. Are there any known issues with this older version?
In the meantime I will use UBCD 5.2.5 - luckily some mirrors still provide the older versions.

Also the message to this bug at the PM download page seems to be gone, so the warning link at the Overview page may go to this post instead.


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 Post subject: Re: Suggestions for replacement of Parted Magic
PostPosted: Mon Dec 16, 2013 10:56 am 
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Warning link updated as suggested. Thanks!

Any objections to rolling back to 2013_06_15 for the next release of UBCD?


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 Post subject: Re: Suggestions for replacement of Parted Magic
PostPosted: Mon Dec 16, 2013 12:11 pm 
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Victor Chew wrote:
Warning link updated as suggested. Thanks!

Any objections to rolling back to 2013_06_15 for the next release of UBCD?


I can see no alternative, unfortunately.

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 Post subject: Re: Suggestions for replacement of Parted Magic
PostPosted: Mon Dec 16, 2013 2:08 pm 
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StopSpazzing wrote:
Victor Chew wrote:
Warning link updated as suggested. Thanks!

Any objections to rolling back to 2013_06_15 for the next release of UBCD?


I can see no alternative, unfortunately.


I disagree. Other tools in UBCD have their own issues too, and they are kept anyway. Even pmagic kept using old most-basic packages for some time, while being bloated for its original purpose.

Alternative #1: no rush to release a new UBCD release; and even then, don't include pmagic.

Real Alternative: please stop talking about pmagic and focus on the real topic of this forum thread: *alternatives to pmagic in UBCD*. I have mentioned several candidates already. They need basic customization and testing, so to use low resources (specially, RAM), simple DE, updated software and support for txz modules.

Comments about those alternative Linux OS (specially from users that already have experienced with them) are needed and welcome.


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 Post subject: Re: Suggestions for replacement of Parted Magic
PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2014 6:49 pm 
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Personally I say drop Partedmagic and put in the gparted instead.
http://gparted.org/livecd.php
Gparted the upstream just use debian livecd's.

Anything happens to gparted we don't have the partitioning tool either. Gparted is customisable pulling in built debian packages.

So now the question becomes what do we really want in applications in the disc. Maybe some other items could be merged into a debian image that could not be merged into a partedmagic.

My basic idea unsupported stop using we are risking very bad outcomes. Hardware advances yes also new hardware bugs get invented its a on going battle to have a Linux OS or any OS that will not cause disasters.

Gparted iso can be used to rebuild customised version of itself. Really creative would be creating a script to rebuild a customised version of gparded and ubcd from inside the livecd of gparted.

Returning to a debian base is also particularly good thinking Steam OS is also debian based so there should be some nice supported hardware. Also we can be are fairly sure Debian is not going to fail and they never going to get the idea of charging us.


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 Post subject: Re: Suggestions for replacement of Parted Magic
PostPosted: Thu Jan 09, 2014 3:35 pm 
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I don't see the point in adding gparted to UBCD. Anyone could download gparted (or any other similar Live image), use it by itself or merged with UBCD with any of the popular "multiboot" tools already available.

For that matter, any bootable ISO image can be merged, or used by itself.

To justify "officially" merging some GNU/Linux Live ISO image into UBCD, it has to be light in resources (low RAM required, low CPU required, low size required), updated tools, actively maintained, *easy* customization by additional modules (such as testdisk, clamAV,...), user-friendly GUI (specially the file manager, with easy access to different types of media and filesystems).

Merging PartedMagic into UBCD meant a minimal script-able customization of its syslinux.cfg and adding "module" files, and it can be done under any OS. For any other Live OS to be "officially" merged into UBCD, the merging procedure has to match such simplicity.

That's why the realistic potential candidates are so few.


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 Post subject: Re: Suggestions for replacement of Parted Magic
PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2014 6:48 pm 
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Quote:
To justify "officially" merging some GNU/Linux Live ISO image into UBCD, it has to be light in resources (low RAM required, low CPU required, low size required), updated tools, actively maintained, *easy* customization by additional modules (such as testdisk, clamAV,...), user-friendly GUI (specially the file manager, with easy access to different types of media and filesystems).


I guess you did not read gparted default list. File manager pcmanfm is included the exact same file-manager parted magic uses same basic interface to access different types of media and filesystems. Testdisk is also included. Next is ram usage is lower than parted magic.

Clamav and others can be apt-get in or you can rebuild with them included.

http://gparted.org/create-gparted-live.php Really a ubcd customised create-gparted-live is what I am more thinking of.

ady you say realistic potential candidates are few. Sorry realistic candidates in my point of view you are making impossible.

Dropping a Linux distrobution losing gparted so losing fully function partition editor is not even a possiblity. Without the partitition editor you have mostly bricked the disc for a lot of issues. UBCD was to solve carring around the 100+ floppies for different diagnostic items. Objective is 1 disc.


syslinux.cfg of a debian live cd will be just as bendable as a parted magic one. Creating the tool to process gparted iso thinking its iso is a standard debian live cd covers clonezilla and many others.

The most common tool disc are debian live.

pmagic/pmodules stuff is in fact horible you are fully dependant on upstream to update. Its not hard to script a equivent to pmodules without half its limitation issues.

Gparted iso module files are just standard .deb files. Read the create-gparted-live its using a gparted disc on a system with 1 G+ of ram to rebuild itself. You can apt-get any extra tool you need from any debian repository with gparted live as long as you have the ram to hold it. Note you can apt-get any extra tool you need.

Add apt-offline to gparted and you are in party central. http://apt-offline.alioth.debian.org/ apt-offline runs on Windows OS X and any Linux distrobution with python to make new bundles. Yes the result of apt-offline is all dependancies include for requested program to add in 1 file. Yes add a .deb package that adds a check somewhere for apt-offline files and order their install and you fairly much have what parted magic is upto.

So moving to a debian base you can rebuild your addons on Windows and OS X with the latest versions.

apt-offline is not the only option once you are inside debian.
http://listaller.tenstral.net/ this is the other. listaller produces IPK files that are fairly much distrobution netural.

So ady choose path of replacement to parted magic modules. Both of the replacement paths provide advantages.

Sorry I don't see parted magic as something particular great or special. Both IPK and apt-offline bundles have their advantages and leave parted magic modules in the dust.


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 Post subject: Re: Suggestions for replacement of Parted Magic
PostPosted: Sat Jan 11, 2014 12:24 am 
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oiaohm wrote:
Clamav and others can be apt-get in or you can rebuild with them included.
http://gparted.org/create-gparted-live.php Really a ubcd customised create-gparted-live is what I am more thinking of.


That's my point; "customization" needs to be done and maintained, and I doubt that's going to happen. PartedMagic was included almost "as-is".

oiaohm wrote:
ady you say realistic potential candidates are few. Sorry realistic candidates in my point of view you are making impossible.


No. Personally, I have already moved on, and I am using other Live systems. I have already mentioned several possible candidates for inclusion with UBCD, although I am personally inclined to add scripts (or wiki pages) for merging them as part of user's customization.

oiaohm wrote:
Dropping a Linux distrobution losing gparted so losing fully function partition editor is not even a possiblity. Without the partitition editor you have mostly bricked the disc for a lot of issues. UBCD was to solve carring around the 100+ floppies for different diagnostic items. Objective is 1 disc.


If GParted Live is wanted, the user should download *it*. Merging it with UBCD can be done by several user-friendly methods.

oiaohm wrote:
<snip>
pmagic/pmodules stuff is in fact horible you are fully dependant on upstream to update.


Dependent? That's incorrect. I had updated pmagic "modules" very easily in the past. For my own needs, it was easier than customizing GParted Live. But I don't want to keep discussing pmagic; we have more than 25 posts in this topic with only one potential list of candidates and nothing else; not really.

oiaohm wrote:
Gparted iso module files are just standard .deb files. Read the create-gparted-live its using a gparted disc on a system with 1 G+ of ram to rebuild itself. You can apt-get any extra tool you need from any debian repository with gparted live as long as you have the ram to hold it. Note you can apt-get any extra tool you need.

Add apt-offline to gparted and you are in party central. http://apt-offline.alioth.debian.org/ apt-offline runs on Windows OS X and any Linux distrobution with python to make new bundles. Yes the result of apt-offline is all dependancies include for requested program to add in 1 file. Yes add a .deb package that adds a check somewhere for apt-offline files and order their install and you fairly much have what parted magic is upto.

So moving to a debian base you can rebuild your addons on Windows and OS X with the latest versions.

apt-offline is not the only option once you are inside debian.
http://listaller.tenstral.net/ this is the other. listaller produces IPK files that are fairly much distrobution netural.

So ady choose path of replacement to parted magic modules. Both of the replacement paths provide advantages.

Sorry I don't see parted magic as something particular great or special. Both IPK and apt-offline bundles have their advantages and leave parted magic modules in the dust.


Interesting links. As I said, I have already moved on from pmagic (a long time ago). I am using the alternatives I already posted. I am already testing (when I have the time) the old pmagic modules in at least one of the alternatives. I still can use .deb and .txz "modules". I test using less than 400MB of RAM, one CPU core.

@oiaohm,
I really appreciate your posts. I just took the time to present my opinion regarding adding some Live system to UBCD, just as you did.

I guess Victor needs to decide when it would be an adequate time to present his own opinions here, or to make a change. I actually still don't see the rush, specially when any Live OS can be used / updated independently of UBCD.


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 Post subject: Re: Suggestions for replacement of Parted Magic
PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2014 11:54 am 
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@oiaohm: From the looks of it, gparted is an option with great potential. Will need more time to dive in for further details.

Might need your help in future to resolve any technical issues.

Thanks!


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 Post subject: Re: Suggestions for replacement of Parted Magic
PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2014 4:30 pm 
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ady a customised gparted maintaince is very min. Of course there is the possiblity of putting the requests in to have the extra features UBCD is wanting merged into gparted future images.

When ubcd started working with parted magic it did not include all the features ubcd wanted as well.

ady please note I am not suggesting at all building from source. Only difference I am suggesting is pull in a few prebuilt and tested binaries and maybe one init add on to load up apt-offline bundles or IPK files. Maybe not since leaving the bundles not installed until need reduces memory presures as well. That was one of the problems I had with bundles and parted magic. The fact parted magic would always set them up. Like pulling in anti-virus signatures when not going to scan.

400MB that is fairly large. gparted live is happy at 132 megs running from disc. 256 in ram still with tones free. This is why I am so sure we have room to play.

No application/kernel in gparted is not stock from debian. The reason why 132 megs is using a stock standard kernel not built for small machines. Less than 132 megs of ram the kernel will not boot. I really hope no one would be trying to run a computer with less than 256 megs of ram these days. That was the window I was looking at. The parted magic is 175M any less it don't run.

Really that is a good question. What is the smallest ram Ubcd wishes to support. Basically what is the point we call a machine junk and not supported.

1G of ram is used by gparted only if rebuilding disc. Something about gparted live is if you do have a internet connection and a new version of gparted or any part it uses has been released you can pull in the new versions in by apt-get/package management.

ady the "as is" is the big problem I had with parted magic. Yes there are broken file tools at times being stuck with "as is" can turn into an annoying problem. If you don't have a blank disc or usb key around gparted live still got me there as long is it was not a kernel issue.

Yes a feature I want in any replacement is the means to update the tools in the Livecd without have to download and make another livecd. Even if the update is temporary. Temporary is enough to get you out of trouble. I understand the dos tools and the like on the UBCD cannot be updated on fly very well but the Linux live cds should be able to.

ady I guess you did not customise your gparted the way I did. Yes I was always adding apt-offline to it this was always so I could grab my debian updates else where as well. Yes this also allowed me to place application updates on a usb key. So I could run the same disc for way longer.

ady what thread is your alternatives in. I don't see your list here.


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 Post subject: Re: Suggestions for replacement of Parted Magic
PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2014 4:58 pm 
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Has anyone actually tried any of the Live options I suggested?

I think there is no "perfect" one to be officially merged with UBCD. My first question for evaluation is, "what's the added value?"; specially in comparison to downloading the candidate separately.

I'll take one example (of the ones I mentioned before, in this same topic): Porteus.
Pros:
_ The website itself allows to build and download a customized version, if really needed.
_ x32, i486 support (in addition to the x86-64 alternatives).
_ The LXDE release has a similar looks to pmagic.
_ Relatively low download size.
_ Some versions can run with 128MB of RAM (remember when pmagic was not bloated?).
_ Compatible with Slackware.
_ Easy GUI support for different type of packages, including .txz.
_ Frugal and modular. The basic OS doesn't need to be bloated. Additional modules (packages) can be added to the "modules" directory, just as pmagic has its "pmodules". There is also a package manager too.
_ Packages can be "activated" by GUI, and only when the user really needs them. Or they can be automatically added during boot up.
_ If desired, current pmagic modules can be used and/or converted by a simple right-click in the GUI file manager. Then put them in the "modules" directory.
_ Active maintenance; active forum; not a one-man show.


I could mention more "pros". Should I mention "cons" too? I'll leave it for a later post.

I am not saying the other candidates are not as good. I am also not presenting any candidate by itself. My thoughts point to some kind of non-painful transition from the current situation in UBCD, and it "must" bring something "extra" when merged into UBCD. If there is no extra, then the Live system might deserve a 10/10, but there is no point in officially adding it to UBCD.


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 Post subject: Re: Suggestions for replacement of Parted Magic
PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2014 9:23 pm 
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ady there is a con but you have called it postive.

The con Porteus due to being slackware based instead of debian. Some of the issues with parted magic at times come from the same issue of not being debian based.

Gparted developers test with debian including debian kernels. So no major supprises when repartitioning will happen with a debian livecd using standard debian kernel and standard debian file handling tools. If we were wanting 128 megs of ram or smaller a debian to consider is http://antix.mepis.org but we do have to take into account this is no longer a kernel gparted developers are testing. Lets hope nothing bad happens. Look at parted magic track record tells you worry about a non upstream tested kernel.

Or they can be automatically added during boot up.
I mostly see this as a con not an advantage. Its going to be extra overhead particular if you turn out you never use them.

Another possible con is Porteus is not recover tool so not likely to have simlar ideas to us.

Gparted and Clonezilla upstreams both use debian livecd as base.
Partclone upstream builds packages for debian and nothing else.
Partimage upstream builds for gentoo and debian.
FSArchiver upstream is rpm or statically linked binary for any distrobution but gparted upstream test this with debian.

This is mostly my problem. Most of the disc tools upstream is directly supporting debian. These disc tool makers have some chops with filesystem issues causes by disc tools. I know I am not a expert with disc tool malfunctions. Being a expert with when it goes wrong and fixing is what parted magic has been offering us.

ady yes you might like slackware but lets be a little trueful here it going to be simpler to get support from the upstreams of the applications that are being provided to end users if those applications developers are also using the same distrobution.

http://www.ntfs-3g.com/distributions.html
If you want to be using the livecd to copy off of windows we do need to look at how to update this bit. Debian to get current ntfs-3g you have to go unstable debian this is also tested by gparted developers.

ady don't care if the replacement at first to parted magic brings less. As long as it also brings less issues of things going wrong.

ady the reason why I asked what tools do we want in linux part of the livecd is to check out the upstreams we will be depending on and making sure they will support the replacement to parted magic we choose.

Short list on distrobutions based on what ones the upstream tools we need are tested there programs with.
This is about giving end users a quality include distrobution they can trust that will work as described even if interface is horible. Horible interface that works is better than a nice interface that just makes matters worse.

Swaping the windows manager out on gparted livecd and a few other things I don't see as high experises things.

ady ubcd is a system recovery tool. Is the portus team of developers going to provide us with any skills in the recovery and repair side we need.

The live cd team has to be a good fit to our objectives. This is why I recommend gparted it might not be perfect but the skill set we can get access to by supporting them could be more than worth it. Ok I see that we need to work with gparted guys on making general user interface nicer. The big but we should not include a tool just because it looks good. Ubcd should only contain tools that work as documented with a prefence for those with support.


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 Post subject: Re: Suggestions for replacement of Parted Magic
PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2014 7:58 am 
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@oiaohm,

Using a Debian base has advantages and disadvantages too.

I don't want to discuss Debian vs. Slackware. I posted items that *I* consider as "pros". That's my personal experience. Some people might agree, some might disagree.

I still think that GParted should not be officially included in UBCD. Thus, I also do not consider that kernels tested by Debian / GParted are a particular better match to be merged with UBCD; I mean not any more than other kernels. For years we used pmagic's kernels, and pmagic itself is used extensively, independently of UBCD. Other "rescue" OS are based on Gentoo... We even have "cpustress", currently by Explorer09 8), with no specific pre-testing.

GParted is great, very useful, really. I just think it is not the best match to be officially included in UBCD. This is just my personal opinion. BTW, anyone can download an updated GParted Live almost every week.


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 Post subject: Re: Suggestions for replacement of Parted Magic
PostPosted: Sat Jan 18, 2014 2:45 pm 
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I didn't try this yet, but the GParted liveCD might be a good candidate too (170 MiB):
http://gparted.org/livecd.php

To have GParted available in UBCD for resizing/creating partitions is an advantage.

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 Post subject: Re: Suggestions for replacement of Parted Magic
PostPosted: Sat Jan 18, 2014 7:35 pm 
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Icecube wrote:
I didn't try this yet, but the GParted liveCD might be a good candidate too (170 MiB):
http://gparted.org/livecd.php

To have GParted available in UBCD for resizing/creating partitions is an advantage.


You don't need GParted Live *included in UBCD* for that. Just download GParted Live. Or...

From Porteus:
Quote:
built-in access to the Porteus, Slackware, Slacky, Slackbuilds.org, Debian, Salix, and Alien repositories


So, either download the .deb package from GParted's site (e.g. for GParted 'testing'), or use Porteus Package Manager.

Debian packages can be converted too, either by script or by right-click GUI.

With GParted Live we only get GParted Live (perhaps customized?).

With Porteus, we get GParted and additional package formats, and a non-Linux's user can manually add packages / modules.

Do you want to change DE? Add a module to
/porteus/modules
.

Want to use (the new) pmagic squashfs modules? Porteus uses squashfs too (beware of i486, x86_64,...).

The size of Porteus-LXDE-v3.0-rc1-i486.iso (without additional / custom modules) is 150MB. The min. RAM required is 128MB.

Relevant disadvantage for some users: Porteus uses stable kernels (as Slackware), so you don't get to test new kernels every week or so.

About Porteus modules:
http://www.porteus.org/component/content/article/9-tutorials/modules/56-what-are-porteus-modules.html


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 Post subject: Re: Suggestions for replacement of Parted Magic
PostPosted: Mon Jan 20, 2014 10:18 pm 
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Now I see ady's point. Why get something specific when you can get something EASILY customizable. Modules and backwards compatibility with pmagic out of the box. I'm starting to lean toward Porteus as the solution.

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 Post subject: Re: Suggestions for replacement of Parted Magic
PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 6:15 pm 
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Quote:
So, either download the .deb package from GParted's site (e.g. for GParted 'testing'), or use Porteus Package Manager.

This shows you don't understand the problem. Gparted deb only contains the GUI. All operations by Gparted are done by file management tools in background so dependancies. Get dependancies wrong Gparted will either be missing features or destory data.

ady does porteus test with gparted as far as I can see no.

The problem is gparted by it self is powerless in a lot of ways.
http://gparted.org/features.php its the extras.

So to install a working version of gparted its install all the correct versions of btrfs-tools, e2fsprogs, f2fs-tools, dosfstools, hfsutils, hfsprogs, jfsutils, util-linux, lvm2, nilfs-utils, ntfs-3g , mtools, ntfsprogs, reiser4progs, reiserfsprogs, xfsprogs, xfsdump and gparted.

ady reality gparted is the biggest and most complex Linux tool the Ubcd needs. There are tones of ways to screw gparted up. Maintaining working gparted on Porteus is quite a work load. Simpler would be working out how to port Porteus packaging to gparted live.

http://joeyh.name/blog/entry/completely ... packaging/ Yes its possbile to package with no distrobution dependancy at all.

StopSpazzing EASILY customizable can equal exploded in face really quickly with gparted. Gparted is an application with a huge number of dependancies any one wrong will cause someone trouble.

http://joeyh.name/code/alien/ the package format arguement is mostly 1 application and mostly pointless. Why mixing packages from all over the place can result in nasty applciation fights.

ady you are focusing way to much on being pmagic compadible. You are missing what we need working. Yes spinning a custom distroubtion sounds bad. But way worse is having to match up the correct dependanices all the time.


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 Post subject: Re: Suggestions for replacement of Parted Magic
PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 7:18 pm 
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@oiaohm,

I am not missing anything; at most I was not clear enough. The phrase about adding a .deb package for GParted was intended to be generic, not specific about GParted.

In fact, Porteus already comes with GParted, so no user needs to install any additional dependencies, nor anything else for that matter, just to use GParted.

I am not focusing on pmagic. I am focusing on reasons to add some Linux Live OS to UBCD. If UBCD users can somehow keep the extra pmagic modules that are already included in UBCD (among other advantages), that's an important plus in this specific direction.

In contrast, any excellent Live distro that does not bring anything additional *when included in UBCD*, can still be downloaded completely *independently* of UBCD.


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 Post subject: Re: Suggestions for replacement of Parted Magic
PostPosted: Tue Feb 04, 2014 4:42 pm 
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ady
Quote:
In fact, Porteus already comes with GParted, so no user needs to install any additional dependencies, nor anything else for that matter, just to use GParted.

And scream at us when it does not work with for example NTFS correctly or some other file system gparted live support perfectly out box.

http://forum.porteus.org/viewtopic.php?f=73&t=1440 NTFS support out box is missing on on portus same with many of the other dependancies I mentioned to have a fully functional gparted.

This is the problem with Gparted yes it simple to have gparted its a lot hard to have a complete gparted install that can fully work.

Porteus out box only comes with the GUI of gparted and limited filesystem support. Fully function gparted with porteus will require pulling in third party parts. This is why I againsted porteus as a option its playing with fire. Huge fire when you are aware that gparted is very version picky in the tools it needs.

Yes you say lets not have to build a custom distrobution the Porteus path condems us to custom distrobution. gparted live customised is still just a customised debian so should be able to avoid building from source and used tested and vaildated binaries.

ady most of what porteus does to support modules is scripts. So there is a possiblity that how porteus does it extentions could be ported to debian. The thing here is porting porteus module system to debian would be a once off effort with option of sending final product upstream not on going headache causing end users repeating problems

ady as I have said my most critical worry is that the solution works properly.

I don't care
1) if nothing from parted magic can be used.
2) I don't care if windows users have to learn extra tools to customise. You don't need a Linux system to build custom debian discs. http://live-build.debian.net/ and the disc can make custom version of self.

In fact the idea of some special feature because the disc is on ubcd does not highly interest me. Extra features are not worth it if the core does not work.

If I could see Porteus is going to work gparted properly I would not be road blocking the way I am. Gparted live and any modifiction from Gparted live. Result will be properly working gparted.

Porteus is in fact putting too much work back on UBCD to be sane. gparted customised you said was a lot of work but that is less than what Porteus will cost.


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